South Park: The Fractured But Whole is a game based on a massively popular TV show, filled with a roster of well-known characters. Balancing those narrative elements within the realm of an RPG is no small task. Luckily for everyone involved, Jolie Menzel was hired. Originally brought on as a level designer, Menzel quickly recognized the need for a dialogue system and a narrative team, and decided to expand her role to fill these needs.
The Jersey Shore native graduated from the Savannah College of Art and Design with a degree in Sequential Art. After attending her first GDC while still in school, Menzel secured a job offer from Telltale Games before she even graduated. The job brought her to the Bay Area, and a few years later, she started at Ubisoft working on The Fractured But Whole. Menzel joined the company as a fan of Assassin's Creed and Far Cry, and is particularly fond of Assassin's Creed Syndicate's dual protagonists, and the relaxing and educational nature of Discovery Tour in Assassin's Creed Origins.
As the Lead Narrative Designer, Menzel is tasked with managing the entire story of The Fractured But Whole, which includes making sure it stays true to the vision of the show's creators. She also spearheaded the development of the game's custom dialogue tool to ensure that all in-game dialogue was more personal than ever before. Menzel and I spoke at the Women in Gaming Rally, where she was a mentor at the Women Make Games luncheon.
What types of games do you like?
Jolie Menzel: I was never really into action games as a girl. It wasn't because anyone told me I shouldn't be playing them; it was more because I didn't like killing things. I was more into the Nintendo world, because death in those games is very squishy and bouncy. Pokémon don't die, they faint. There's no blood in those games, but the nice thing is that they've maintained their reputation as being "real games." I also love Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle, even though I'm really bad at it (laughs).
How do you transition from a level designer to a narrative designer?
JM: I really just have this innate need to tell stories and share a story with the player or viewer. That goes back to college; I was always writing comics or fan-fiction, I wanted to tell stories in whatever way I could. When I was really young, I used to mod games to change the dialogue of certain characters. I've also been lucky enough to have had a lot of great mentors that helped me improve while at Ubisoft, like Ken Strickland and Jason Schroeder.
Have you had female role models during your career?
JM: When I was in school, Brenda Romero was teaching there, and she's such a luminary figure in games. I never even had a class with her, but just knowing she was there was enough for me to be like, "I can make games! Brenda's making games!"
At Ubisoft, Heather Haefner has been amazing. She has such a vision for Ubisoft as a force for promoting diversity in games. She helped reach out to the Girls Make Games initiative. Just knowing that that mentality is part of our studio culture has given me a lot of confidence to help out with those causes as well. I feel comfortable to come to places like this Women in Gaming Rally because of that culture that Heather helps foster. She was actually one of the first female connections I made at Ubisoft because I do so many talks that require PR approval.
I work with a lot of great women; Emiko Sunaga over in Osaka, for example. She's a mom, a great designer, and bilingual. She does it all, and it's all on her skill. She succeeds because she's skillful and friendly and personable and nice. There are so many wonderful women on my team, I can't even name all of them, but if reading this and you're on my team, you're amazing.
Why do you think there's such a large gender diversity gap in game development?
JM: There are a lot of reasons, and it goes all the way back to childhood. Games are often put in the boys section of the store, and there aren't as many games for girls. Even the games that are marketed at women have a stigma attached to them that they're not "real games." They're the "quiet" games, the "pet" games, the "softer" games for women. That can be disenfranchising, because you can be stuck in this vortex where you might not feel invited to reach out and try other types of games.
As you get older and older, that gender gap becomes more apparent. Women are told we have to dress a certain way, act a certain way, and behave "lady-like." A lot of women I know who are into games today had brothers growing up. That's a common "explanation" for why a women is into gaming, but that typically means she had a family that supported her decision to do what she wanted. Some women didn't grow up with that home support so they were never really introduced into the culture.
There's also a somewhat toxic community in some games that sees them as a strictly masculine thing. Some gaming communities can be somewhat caustic to people who aren't cis white men. There can be a lot of points of friction in a woman's life where she thinks, "Well, maybe games aren't for me."
Have you ever felt like games were meant for people who weren't you?
JM: You know, I never even thought about it. I used to play games all the time as a girl and it never once crossed my mind that I could be playing as a woman. It wasn't weird to me that I was playing as a guy; that's how every game is. The realization that there weren't many women really only came once I entered the industry. When people started asking, "Where is the female representation?" When Feminist Frequency started doing their critiques is really when I realized, "Oh yeah, why couldn't I play as a woman in all these games?" I never realized it wasn't a choice, until it was offered as a choice. It feels like a more common thing for minorities now. There's so few minority protagonists in games, and I feel like a lot of young people I meet who are minorities don't even realize that it's possible until they're shown it.
South Park: The Fractured But Whole has one of the most interesting gender selection mechanics I've ever seen. Did you have any part in that?
JM: Yeah! That was a joke Matt [Stone] and Trey [Parker] wanted to tell really early on. They thought it would be interesting if the game let you pick more than two genders. The interesting part is that that choice resonated throughout the entire game, because we suddenly needed gender-neutral pronouns. I was explaining the intricacies of gender to Matt and Trey, and they just told me write the whole sequence, actually! So I wrote the missions where Mr. Mackey helps you build your gender. It was tough to communicate it all to the team. I had to make these big flow charts like, "OK, these are female-presenting genders that use the female pronouns, these are the male ones, and these are the neutral ones." We are actually the first Ubisoft game to use gender-neutral pronouns!
What advice would you give to a woman who wants to do what you do?
JM: I'd tell her to surround yourself with allies, find role models, and find mentors as early as you can. I know that's easier said than done, but you can go online and look at GDC talks, look at Twitter, and find women in games to remind yourself that you're not alone, and that goes for any minority group. Seek out the people who you see parts of yourself in, and try to connect with them and the people they keep in their circles. Find a network of people you can feel safe around and help you grow.
What's the best advice you've ever been given?
JM: I think "trust yourself," which seems so basic but it's important. I was 20 when I entered the games industry. I was just a girl and a kid to most people. I was lucky enough, when I got to San Francisco, that I found of group of people who validated me, that said "we don't care what your age is, we don't care what your gender is, you have valid things to say." And a lot of these people were cis-gendered white men who wanted to hear my story because they were tired of hearing and seeing their story. That was pivotal for me; if I hadn't met those people, I probably wouldn't be anywhere near this point in my career, I'd likely be much more junior. They really gave me the confidence to advance further.
What can more diversity bring to development teams?
JM: First and foremost, originality. A more diverse pool is going to help you think in ways you weren't thinking before. It means ideas are going to go through more iterations and viewpoints. Cultural reference points will change how a game is made. Then, once the game releases, suddenly you have a more diverse audience that's connecting to your game in a greater way, because maybe someone in a meeting once raised their hand and gave a unique opinion based on their background. Embrace the difficult topics, talk about race, talk about gender, and get the viewpoints of those people on your team.
What does the Women in Gaming Rally mean to you?
JM: I get to be the mentor I never had while I was in school. It was life-changing to me just to know we had a female game-design dean in school. That gave me the confidence to pursue games and sign up for a couple game electives. Seeing a possible career path as a young woman was so important to me, and I want to pay that forward.
